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A Little LeFever Christmas Eye Candy
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bmdgunstocks
Sideplate


Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 90
Location: Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Stromski wrote:
See also:Guns International item #100689722
No connection here.


Now that is a relatively nicely done embelished Lefever (A grade). Executed well with skilled craftsmanship.

The subject gun of this thread is NOT.

I wish i could find where i saw this gun for sale recently on the internet so i could see how it was advertised. I would be curious. I just recall seeing it, cringing, and hitting the back button.
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B. Dudley
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Marks_21
Optimus


Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 299
Location: Crockett VA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW.
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sidebyside16
Optimus


Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pine Creek/Dave,I would pay good money to see the look on Walter Snyders face when you asked him if he felt that your gun was sold by Ithaca in it's current configuration.

I too, would like to see a picture of that rotary bolt on your Cross-Over Nitro Special. And maybe a photo or two of some of the parts your gun has in common with the Syracuse Lefever. A picture of the serial number with the last two digits covered would be nice too. I have also seen other Nitro Specials that were embellished with engraving, gold inlays, etc. But there were no claims that these guns left the Ithaca factory as anything but plain-Jane field grade Nitro Specials.

Ithaca spent a lot of time and money advertising their version of the Lefever. Don't you think they would have made a point to showcase an original engraved version?

I hope whoever sold you on this story about this gun didn't charge you too much. But if you are interested, I have a Cross-Over Brooklyn Bridge for sale.
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Marks_21
Optimus


Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 299
Location: Crockett VA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject: Real Lefever/ Ithaca "crossover" Reply with quote

Here is a picture relevant to the misunderstanding in this discussion:
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2-Piper
Optimus


Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 645
Location: Lynchburg, TN

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marks21;
Beautiful gun & definitely built on the original Lefever design. What grade is this one? Amazingly I have an FE with chain Damascus barrels, but of course the rest of the gun is not near as elaborate as this one.
With the Ithaca NY address this is definitely one of those built by Ithaca between 1916 & 1921.
I have never seen any indication that Ithaca introduced "Their" gun prior to 1921, ie the NS. he A grade as indicated earlier did not come out until 1934.
The lower priced "Western Arms" was essentially a NS with malleable iron frame rather than a drop forged steel one, but did not carry the Lefever name.
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Sentry44
Optimus


Joined: 17 Mar 2015
Posts: 140
Location: Upstate New York

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gave two tries at straightening this fellow out. Sadly, he's just a whirling dervish of misinformation.

In sympathy, I even did a web search for "Lefever Nitro Special engraving" and all I came up with was...a thread from another forum where he recently posted about this gun. The kicker is, on THAT thread he describes:

"My one of a kind 1916 LeFever Christmas Present, with A. E. Spangler and A. Kraus Engraving..."

http://bbs.shootingsportsman.com/showthread.php?6525-A-Little-LeFever-Christmas-Eye-Candy-Merry-Christmas-Everybody!&s=08a71a374ea9193b3a3ed0788f3de09d

That's right...engraved by TWO of America's finest engravers.

I mean, they could have collaborated on an Optimus or an A-1 Special or even a Souza gun. But they didn't.

And thus was born, the "Nitro Extra Super Duper Special."

The internet really can be a great information resource. Just as Thomas Jefferson said it was.

-- Sentry
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bmdgunstocks
Sideplate


Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 90
Location: Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No... the two engravers who colaborated on this gun were actually brothers. And they were both named Daryl. And the stock carving was done by their good friend Bubba.
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Joe Stromski
Sideplate


Joined: 24 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now Brian,don't get snarky.I noticed PT/D gives his location as the Endless Mt. area of Pennsylvania.Perhaps an invitation to one of the SXS events in that area would help him. But I don't know if even talking with Dr.Bob could help this fellow.
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Sentry44
Optimus


Joined: 17 Mar 2015
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Location: Upstate New York

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, at first I thought he was just a nice old guy who received a gift from his wife and was excited about it, but fairly misinformed. But when you read through that thread on the other forum it becomes clear the guy is either a kook, or a charlatan. The telling will be if he starts offering the gun for sale.

In that thread, he actually says the gun is of "1,000 grade" quality. Really, he actually believes this. Separately, he asserts it has Krupp barrels. But he's cheeky about giving further photos.

He clearly has Bob Elliots last book. So my sense is because he hasnt ever seen or held these guns before, and because there are lots of confusing bits of knowledge, he doesnt have any frame of reference for any of it. For example, anyone who collects doubles knows that Krupp barrels are always labeled as such, specifically. Whether on Lefever, Elsie, Baker, etc. They ALWAYS say Krupp.

He's a little like a space alien who doesnt know what baseball even is, but wants to argue how the game is played based solely on his best guesses about old equipment he's found lying around.

Young fools are often easily reformed, as they are merely a product of inexperience. But old fools are hardened through years of believing in foolish things. After so many years thus, it would practically kill such a person to have to admit any errors. They would rather steel themselves against reality.

- Sentry
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sidebyside16
Optimus


Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Stromski wrote:
Now Brian,don't get snarky.I noticed PT/D gives his location as the Endless Mt. area of Pennsylvania.Perhaps an invitation to one of the SXS events in that area would help him. But I don't know if even talking with Dr.Bob could help this fellow.


My very first post started out being somewhat "snarky". I deleted it and started over. Several people here have tried very hard to help Pine Creek/Dave understand what he actually has. I see we here are all being cast in a rather negative light by Pine Creek/Dave or RGD/Dave on the Shooting Sportsman board. I'm not sure just what conspiratorial "agenda" Dave thinks we have other than attempting unsuccessfully to educate him that he has nothing more than a Nitro Special that has had aftermarket engraving and carving.

I can't blame Brian or anyone else for getting impatient, or maybe even a bit "snarky". Pine Creek/Dave had ample opportunity to show us a few things that would have confirmed exactly what he refuses to believe. He did post pictures of the NITRO SPECIAL rib extension on the Shooting Sportsman board. It clearly is not anything like the rotary bolting found on L.C. Smiths or the later Ithaca N.I.D. guns. Although several guys on the other forum have kindly informed Dave that the rib extension, position of screws, serial number , tangs, and other characteristics confirm that this is indeed a Nitro Special, he is still stubbornly clinging to the silly notion that this is some extremely rare early special order prototype. Somewhere, he has found a letter S on a vertical portion of the barrels which he claims are Krupp barrels. So he is now certain that this letter S indicates that the gun is Special Order or Small Frame. Then he goes on to say that "unfortunately the Ithaca Gun company, every so many years, destroyed their sales documentation records, especially when the Ithaca Gun Company business, changed hands, via Company sale." That is another first that I have never heard or read about, even in Walter Snyders book. Yet this guy who seems to know things about Ithaca Gun Co. that no one else on Earth knows was actually asking if Walter Snyder ever actually worked for Ithaca.

And get this. He is still searching for the original owner, hoping to get documentation of the original sales records to confirm his wild conjecture. I've got news for Dave. If he thinks this gun was made in 1916, the original owner would have to be the oldest man in the world unless he bought the gun when he was a newborn baby. Even then, he'd be over 100 years old now. You all need to click on the link Sentry 44 provided and read this insanity for yourselves. It is entertaining if nothing else.

Or maybe you guys know something that I don't know, and you are all trying to con poor Dave out of the rarest and most valuable gun in the world by telling him it's just a Nitro Special with an Earl Scheib upgrade. You should be ashamed of yourselves! Wink
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DrBob
Optimus


Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 617
Location: Fairview, NC

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The owner of this gun claims to live in the Endless Mountains in Pa. The Lefever Arms Collectors Association will have a table at both the Northeast Side by Side and Northern Side by Side events in that area in June and September, respectively. I invite him to bring the gun by so that we can take a closer look at it.

We could compare it to this real Nitro Optimus Razz


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bmdgunstocks
Sideplate


Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 90
Location: Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He says that we are wrong to call out the gun for what it is (a poorly embellised nitro special with no factory connection) due to lack of proof!

I would turn the finger around and say that HE has the burden of proof here to prove to us that the gun IS what he says it is. He won't find it.



Now that is a tastfully done custom nitro Bob.
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DrBob
Optimus


Joined: 04 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian,
What this isn't a factory original? Rolling Eyes
Engraving by Ellis Sawyer who was a student of Ken Hurst at the time. Case coloring by John Gillette at Central.
It was my first shotgun, a gift from my mother. It was used to take deer using slugs in upstate NY. It was the gun I learned to shoot trap with. It was worn to the white and sitting in a safe when I decided to give it a new life just for laughs.
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sidebyside16
Optimus


Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrBob wrote:
Brian,
What this isn't a factory original? Rolling Eyes
Engraving by Ellis Sawyer who was a student of Ken Hurst at the time. Case coloring by John Gillette at Central.
It was my first shotgun, a gift from my mother. It was used to take deer using slugs in upstate NY. It was the gun I learned to shoot trap with. It was worn to the white and sitting in a safe when I decided to give it a new life just for laughs.


No,. I simply don't believe that story. I'll bet it has a 2 and a 4 on the bottom of the barrels. If so, it is obviously No. 2 and No. 4 of a matched Special Order Quadruple/ Pair set built by Uncle Dan Lefever himself after he faked his own death in 1906. A letter P stamped on the forearm hanger would indicate that it is Precious.

I know that if we could get Walter Snyder drunk enough, he would finally admit the truth about these one-of-a-kind Custom prototypes that were built in a secret bunker deep withing the bowels of Ithaca Gun Co. Hopefully, we could also learn the identity of the people who have been destroying the Ithaca sales records and spelling the name of the company Ithica in an effort to thwart discovery of these Special Order million dollar grade guns.
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Joe Stromski
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Joined: 24 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Shooting Sportsman thread is getting longer.I think I will check on it every couple of days to see how long this goes on.
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