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damascus barrel

 
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Sideplate


Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:00 pm    Post subject: damascus barrel Reply with quote

If your barrel has KRUPP on it does it mean it is not a damascus barrel? And for an E grade would it be chambered for 2 and 3/4 lenghth shells. What is a nitro lefever?
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Travis Sims
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krupp barrels are not damacus.

Your E grd originally wouldn't have been chambered 2 3/4
(i could possibly be wrong about that)

Nitro Lefever is not a Lefever. Just a gun built by Ithaca with Lefever name only.
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2-Piper
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the 12ga Lefevers I have are chambered 2 3/4", at least one is 2 5/8". It should be noted that shells in lengths of 2½", 2 5/8", 2 3/4", 2 7/8", 3" & 3¼" were all available for 12ga during the time the Lefever was being built. I believe it likely that Lefevers were available with whatever length of chamber the purchaser wanted. I have one 10ga & one 16ga which both have 3" chambers. It is actualy much more reasonable to assume these were factory chambered to that length than that they are a later re-chamber.
L C Smith 12gas were chambered to 2 3/4" from a very early date as standard & I personally believe the majority of Lefevers were also, at least by the time of the large hook action. My 2 5/8" chambered gun is a two-hook model. However my 3" 10ga is still earlier as a rod-cocker with pivot lever.
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RichardBrewster
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:59 am    Post subject: chamber lengths Reply with quote

I have an original hang tag for a G grade, SN 312XX (last 2 digits illegible), marked by the factory "chambered for 2 3/4" shell". Based on Bob Elliott's extrapolation, this G grade would have left the factory around 1900-01. The last series of catalogues in the Durston era, before Lefever Arms was sold to Ithaca, contain the following notation in the "Suggestions-when ordering" section on page 16: "Our twelve gauge guns are chambered for two-and-three-quarter-inch shells, unless otherwise specified." In other words, at some point the 2 3/4" shell became standard, subject (as always with Lefevers) to the customer's preference.
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BirdogEd
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To somewhat answer your question regarding Krupp barrels; they are "Fluid Steel" barrels, that had a percentage of Nickel in them, thus adding longivity and strength. The purpose of course, was to provide a superior product for use with "Nitro" powders. If I am not mistaken, I believe FOX's "Chromox" (?) barrels were made by Krupp. WWII, and the Soviet Block/ Cold War brought an end to the ESSEN Mfg. of shotgun barrels for American Gun Makers.

To my knowledge ALL Krupp barrels were manufactured this way. One last note, "Sheffield" fluid steel barrels are highly prized barrels, also made with Nickel, out of England; and I believe some of their barrels made it onto some high grade Lefevers.

Doppelt Gvn Gruben
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Sideplate


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Battle you were right it is chambered to 2 1/2 inch according to the smith. Is it safe and exspensive to make it for 2 3/4 inch?
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2-Piper
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to double check your Smith. I would bet my last dollar (& I'm not a gambler) its "Not" chambered 2½". It may well be 2 5/8" but is Highly unusual to find a 12ga US gun chambered in 2½", built late enough to have Krupp bbls on them.
Early US standards were 12ga 2 5/8", 16ga 2 9/16". 20ga 2½". Orher lengths were always available on order. 12 was the first to go to 2 3/4" as standard 20 next & 16 last.
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Sideplate


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: barrel chambering Reply with quote

yes it is 2 5/8 what about rechambering to 2 3/4?i
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:25 am    Post subject: forend iron Reply with quote

my E grade serial 46458 is missing the forend iron. Mr. Hamlin will refit a lessor grade iron to it. What type would have been standard during that time? What were the differences? I know I have to get it engraved to match.
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hammer
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject: E grade forend Reply with quote

Suggest you talk to Ken Hurst about matching up the engraving. He posts on this site.
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PeteM
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the past, few if any did research into barrels. Researchers were looking at gun makers. In the past few years, more have narrowed their focus. Not only the source of barrels, but also the particulars of their composition and construction have become a focus. There is huge grey area in terms of channels of supply for gun makers. In some cases, it seems that what was once considered a "maker's mark" may eventually prove to be the mark of an exporter / importer.

Metallurgy: The Art of Extracting Metals from Their Ores, and Adapting Them to Various Purposes of Manufacture
By John Percy
Published by J. Murray, 1864

http://books.google.com/books?dq=krupp+carbon&pg=PA837&id=RYpBAAAAIAAJ#PPA837,M1

Quote:
Uniformity in grain, to which I have above alluded, is not an invariable characteristic of Krupp's steel ; for not long ago I received from Mr. Lloyd, chief engineer of the Navy, part of a fractured marine shaft made of this steel, which was very much more largely crystalline towards the centre than elsewhere.

The following is an analysis by Mr. Abel, of the lioyal Arsenal, of a portion of a cast-steel gun made by Krupp :

Carbon, combined 1.18%
Silicon 0.33%
Sulphur none.
Phosphorus 0.02%
Manganese trace.
Cobalt and nickel 0.12%
Copper 0.30%
Iron, by difference 98.05%


Another analysis of Krupp steel used for railroad rails.
Engineering chemistry: a practical treatise for the use of analytical chemists, engineers, ironmasters, iron founders, students, and others
By H. Joshua Phillips
Published by C. Lockwood & son, 1891

http://books.google.com/books?id=UgBIAAA...ganese#PPA65,M1

Side by side analysis of Krupp with other steels.
A naval encyclopædia: comprising a dictionary of nautical words and phrases; biographical notices, and records of naval officers; special articles of naval art and science
Published by L. R. Hamersly & co., 1880

http://books.google.com/books?id=IPvxNqDjeXYC&pg=PA387&dq=krupp+carbon+silicon+Manganese

Another side by side comparison
Proceedings - Institution of Mechanical Engineers
By Institution of Mechanical Engineers (Great Britain)., Institution of Mechanical Engineers (Great Britain)
Published by Published for the Institution by Mechanical Engineering Publications Ltd., 1902
Item notes: pt. 2

http://books.google.com/books?id=HXbNAAA...anese#PPA837,M1

Alfred Krupp: a Sketch of His Life and Work: After the German of Victor Niemeyer
By Kate Woodbridge Michaelis, Otho E. Michaelis, E. Monthaye
Published by T. Prosser, 1888

Krupp puddled steel plant
http://books.google.com/books?id=UKlCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=krupp+puddling#PPA59,M1

The composition seems to change over time and possibly by intended use.

From 1905 work by Prof Buturlin of Russia about metal strength.

Steel Type Max (lbs/sq in)
Damascus -------------- 31,291 to 52,626
Typical 1905 Steel --- 64,000
Winchester Steel ----- 39,400
Winchester Nickel --- 88,600
Krupp Special --------- 85,340
Krupp 5 M ------------- 92,450
Bohler Antinit ------ 116,630

To further complicate the "Krupp" barrel issue. It seems likely that Krupp was working a licensing scheme with some barrel makers. Basically those makers could stamp a barrel "Krupp" if it met certain standards of the license.

So, in summary. The most that can be said about barrels that bear the Krupp stamp, is that they met certain standards set by Krupp. Exactly what those standards were, seems to have changed over time. We do not have or at least have yet to find, the standards Krupp set for shotgun barrels.


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lee r moege
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find this very interesting as Krupp barrels and Winchester nickel steel are close in strength per this thread. Unfortunately,my Lefevers are damascus so I use RST 2 1/2" shells BUT, as many of us are, I am afflicted with affection for other doubles particularly Ansley Fox. On that forum, most will advise to shoot low pressure loads in Krupp barrels [there are no Fox damascus barrels], but stop and think how many short mags and all kinds of stuff have been run through the old nickel steel Winchesters without bursting problems. Of course one has to consider how the stocks were attatched and the heading on all old doubles with 70/100 year old wood is of concern. The old Model 12 nickel steel pumps had a throughbolt which pretty much takes care loose stocks but they still show cracks behind the reciever and tang if they have been shot much. Have I nice day guys!! Lee.
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